Jessie Dumeux and Richard 'Chuddy' Alley on 15th April at Chuddy's Home (at 12:30pm) Intro: Richard 'Chuddy' Alley, is interviewed by College of the Atlantic students Jessie Duma, the interviewer (who is also an Island Fellow and worked at Great Cranberry Island Historical Society) and Jenny Matthews, the camerawoman. They are sitting in Chuddy Alley's home on Islesford, Hancock County, Maine, USA. are used for inaudible parts of a sentence / are used when a person starts speaking over the end of the previous person's sentence. Eg JD: You would drink the milk then and then use the cream?/ CA: Yeah JD: /Would you make butter? Here, Chuttie affirms Jessie's question whilst she's still talking. Hence the I's at the end of the first sentence and the beginning of the second. Part 1 JD: How long ago was that? CA: Quite a while JD: What would you do with groceries? CA: I lived on the Cranberries first. On the dock over there. About a year it was. JD: Yeah. How would you uhm, like carry stuff off the boat, if you had to go up a ladder? Did they have like uh pulley system or something? CA: Yeah, yup. JD: That's so cool! That's awesome, okay let me just get organised. JM: Well the floats on Cranberry haven't gone in yet I don't think. CA: yeah I don't know JD: Yeah right, what's the deal with that? JM: it's the same person who puts them in right? CA: yup, Roy Hedlock. shuffling JM: Ah there we go JD: Okay you got the recorder Jenny? JM: mhm CA: you staying over on cranberry? JD: Yeah. I'm staying well | actually was staying in Bruce Komusin's cabin in like the middle of the island, but now I'm in Sharleen Allen's old house. CA: whose old house? JD: Sharleen Allen's? Yeah, yeah, up on dog point, which is awesome, and that's where Jenny's gonna live someday. CA: Down on dog point JD: yeah, and it's so cool because it's, COS it was Lysha's old store. And uhm that they like pulled up, y'know to make like the CA: I used to live over there, on great Cranberry JD: Yeah so you live, you grew up on Great Cranberry and when did, how long were you there for, when did you move over here? CA: well | got out of the service at, maybe. there wasn't any place over there to live then. JD: Really? CA: This place was available so we got it. JD: why wasn't there any place over there, was it too many people? Or just, no free land? CA: Well yeah, more crowded then. JD: Yeah. Right so that was right after WWII then you came over here. Oh. Cool, and before we go any further it's a recording, just want to get on the recorder that today is April 15 and I'm Jessie Duma, I'm here with Jenny Matthews, and Chuttie Alley in Chuttie's home and its around 12:30 and this recording is for my history of agriculture project uhm and Chuttie I just want to let you know that this interview will probably be kept in the Great Cranberry Historical Society archives and I might use some excerpts in uhm an exhibit I'm doing or a publication but anything I use would be run by you, before I used it. Does that all sound okay? CA: Oh yeah. JD: Awesome perfect cool okay so yeah so then until how old were you that you lived on (Great) Cranberry? CA: was in '41. | went to school and | graduated. JD: You graduated from the school on (Great) Cranberry? CA: Mauleen Bunker, do you know her? JD: Oh yeah, definitely. CA: She was in my class, we graduated '41. JD: Class of '41? It was uhm, just the three of you? CA: yeah JD: And Paul Phibben. CA: He's passed on, now JD: Did he live over there? CA: He drank himself to death. JD: Oh goodness, oh man well you and Polly (Alley) are still going strong. CA: Oh yeah! JD: Hold outs. Yeah, Exactly. CA: She was a pirate. JD: A pirate? Laughter uhm. Actually Jenny, Jenny is dating Patrick Allen CA: oh yeah JM: Polly's great nephew I guess JD: yeah. Kinda family CA: Allen? That's um. JM: That's Gary's son JD: Mhm right exactly. So you grew up on Cranberry so you were born around, CA: '26 JD: '26? 1926? Wow you're coming up on.. 80 then? No. CA: 88 JD: 88. JM: Jessie this battery's low JD: Oh really? Okay would you mind, changing out the battery for us Jenny? JM: I would not JD: thank ya Part 2 CA: .the spine. JD: Oh man. Ouch So that keeps you over here mostly. CA: Yeah. Sitting in the chair. JD: It's a nice chair. CA: Hope I'm sitting on it alright. JD: oh. so uhm one thing, I think I've heard this from Karey, I've talked with Karey a bunch. And she mentioned that you had a big garden growing up on Great Cranberry. CA: Oh we had, sort of, a little farm. JD: Really? CA: and cows, two COWS, pigs, and hens. JD: Pigs, hens and cows? That's awesome. And now where was this, where did you guys live, oh you told me, you lived in Jimmy Stanley's house right, out on the point? CA: yep we did when we came from Northport JM: oh right CA: came up in the boat and stayed in the harbor overnight, in the boat, near the shore and lived in the house quite a while. JD: is that where you had the COWS and the pigs and everything. CA: no, no, no ... when we got the post office, that's when we moved up the street. JD: Now where was that, then that you moved to? CA: Well they tore it down, used to be, be the library. JD: Oh is that, it's right by um, the Mickey McFarlane's house? CA: it used to be, yeah JD: And that was the library, and the post office? CA: yep, mother had a store there too JD: Really? When you were there? CA: Yep. JD: Library, post office, and store. And did you live in that same building? CA: yup. Quite a family outfit. Quite a big place. JD: Yeah, now who else was in your family? CA: uh. Clarence Beal JM: Oh really? JD: Cyrus Beal? JM: Clarence CA: Of Beal and Bunker. JD: yeah! CA: He was the boat do.. that built all those boats. JD: mhmm. Right. CA: yeah. JM: Clarence and Raymond right? CA: hmm? JM: Was it Raymond and Clarence? CA: no. Raymond is another. Boat builder. JD: Oh huh. CA: He was Ted Bunker's brother. JD: right, right. CA: Moford/Mulford/Mulfort(?) yeah JD: yeah. Of Beal and Bunker. So Clarence lived with you? CA: No, he lived, he married Barbara Beal. Barbara Rice. JD: mm. married Barbara Beale CA: He become a Beal. She was a schoolteacher JD: Barbara was? CA: Mhm. JD: hm, so then when you were growing up you guys lived in the library/post office/store. CA: and we bought the Beverley.. we bought that. JD: Oh, that was your house? CA: Lived out there for a long while. JD: No kidding! And that was CA: everyone married and moved off. No one bought it. JD: So you lived in Beverley's house. And now where did you keep the animals, up there? CA: there was a, barn down in the woods. And, in that field, that's where big an was. JD: Which field? JM: the one across from CA: from the house. Over to uhm Mickey's. JD: Oh okay so over on Mickey's side. CA: yeah JD: across the way. And there was a barn there? CA: mhmm. JD: Did you guys build the barn or was it there from CA: yep, yep, mhm. And hens down there, we had a dozen cats and every night molly/mum would go down to milk the cow. Them cats would get up, and trail along behind here. Stay in the barn all night. JD: would she give them the milk, from the CA: yeah, hand down and give 'em warm milk (everyone's laughing here) JD they knew what was coming then CA: They knew the whole time whole time, she was going to milk the cow too. JD: mhm and she had to do that twice a day/ morning and night? CA: /yeah/morning and night JD: WOW, and it was always your mu- did you ever milk the cows? CA: no, I never did. JD: hm. So. Okay, so you had two COWS, what did you do with the milk? CA: Well, it was quite a family. Cream off skim it off with a spoon. Mm. love heavy cream (laughter) JD: Love heavy cream. Jenny's got me hooked on dairy. So would you uhm. You would drink the milk then and then use the cream?/ CA: Yeah JD: /Would you make butter? CA: no. We did it one time. Remember churning it JD: You had a churn, a butter churn? AC: Yeah, a churn yeah. JD: Was it one of the uhm, up and down ones or did it have a crank? AC: No, it was crank on the top of the bucket. JD: No kidding. But you only did it, why did you only do it one time? CA: getting on churning I guess. (laughter) JD: So with two COWS, your family ate all the milk? Or did you sell/ or give any away CA: There was another family, had his up on top of the hill, big farmhouse. / JD: Oh that's right CA: /He had a lot of, at least six COWS sometimes. JD: Oh my gawsh. I've heard that he had COWS; Carl Hardy. CA: He sold milk, yeah JM: What year was that? CA: more about my age JD: hm. So this was probably in the thirties then? CA: Mhm JD: And now, I've heard that Carl Hardy used to take his COWS down to Mink Brook, and pasture them down there. Did you do anything, or where did you pasture your cows? CA: Way round the house outside. Put them on a line. JD: wow. JM: That must have been a sight, to walk up the road and see COWS. CA: each noontime, so they could drink JD: where do'you take em to, to drink? CA: .at home, straight to the house JD: Oh yeah, did you have an outdoor well, at the house? CA: an undug well JD: Did it go inside the house or did you pump it. Outside CA: No, a pump in the house JD: oh okay, so no, running water, no taps. CA: no. no pump or anything JD: Oh man, whose job was it to pump? CA: whenever anyone wanted water they'd just pump it. JD: Did it themselves? AC: yeah JD: oh cool, so um, you said you had a big garden, who kept up the garden in your house? CA: there was a guy who had a big horse, he went around JD: No kidding, do you remember who that was? CA: lan Eamon(?) you know that Murches way down that's where he got that well he'd come up on his wagon, you could S.. on hi brown(?) he had sandwiches with garlic in it, that strong, that's what his dinner was JD: Really?? (laughter) CA: Garlic sandwiches JD: You could smell him coming, I'm sure CA: oh yeah JD: So he, he had a wagon you said, too? CA: Yep, a wagon, pull his plough up with JD: Garlic sandwiches yeughh (laughter) John Haemer that was. CA: yeah. JD: Did he plough for a lot of people, on the island? CA: Yep JD: Who else? Do you remember who else he ploughed for? CA: Not really. He had his own garden and things down there. JD: down at Murches point? CA: Yeah JD: That, it must have been a huge, draft horse/ I would think CA: /oh yeah that was a big, big rugged, I don't - what they call em' draft horse? JD: yeah like a Clydesdale CA: Yeah, a big one JD: And now, did he use the horse for anything else? Or just for ploughing come Spring? CA: Yep, yup. I don't know if he had uh anything to do with uh freezing ice for the summer or not. JD: Oh I've heard about that CA: Got, two used to get ice JD: Two of em? CA: Mhm, down Preble cove JD: Oh yup, yeah by Sammy Sanford's cabin? CA: Mhm JD: And where's the other one? CA: The road went down by uh schoolhouse hill, went up and down by the cemetery, went right down to one of the ponds. JD: And they used horses to pull up the ice? CA: Yep JD: That's awesome CA: I dunno, I can't remember where they stored it. They stored it with sawdust over it, so it don't melt. JD: No kidding CA: Used to have one here, shed, house right down there they've moved it up JD: Which house is the old ice house? CA: This one JD: This one right across the ways? CA: Mattna mays JD: Mattna mays CA: He's from New York. This's his house right here you can see part of it, behind them trees. JM: yeah CA: they've added to it an' everything now. Ice house JD: It was an ice house. So did he like- CA: With his barn, he used to have horses and COWS. JD: Who did? CA: David's Bill. Yup. JD: I've heard that, yeah. Now did he sell milk? CA: Yep mhm JD: And where, his barn, live been told the location of his barn, but where was his barn? CA: up the street here, down and you can see it JD: Okay. It's; is it still there? CA: No, torn down now house there JD: Shoot. Missed it again! Okay but kind of getting back to the, to the ice, did your family have an ice chest? CA: Nnnno. JD: Hm. Did you have a refrigerator? CA: I don't remember how we kept it in highschool. JD: Yeah, like how did you, how did your family preserve food? CA: Jars, and canned it JD: mm. uhm CA: well the garden would we had fresh veg canned stuff was JD: What sort of stuff did you can? CA: Cucumbers, and, beets JD: Canned meat? CA: Beets JM: Beets CA: greens. JD: And who was in charge of the canning in your house? CA: Mother did it. JD: She did all of it? CA: No, you get it ready, and you jar it.. down JD: Did she have any help? CA: I'd help her get it ready. JD: You did? Nice. Now could you, what was your mother's name? CA: Clara JD: Clara.. Alley? CA: Mhm. JD: And your father's name? CA: Andrew. JM: Was your mother originally, was her maiden name Rice? Was she a Rice? CA: No, no Scott. It's from down east, they came from down east JD: Why did your family come to the island? CA: Well, my father had a job he came up and got a job at the the boathouse over on the pool. JD: The, the Cranberry Isles Boathouse? CA: : We moved up JD: What uhm then who owned it, the boathouse? CA: Stanley's. JD: Now was this before or after you were born? CA: I forgot the original owner but someone, Boynton Stanley. JD: What Stanley? CA: Stanley. JD: What was his first name? Boynton? CA: Boynton. JD: That's a funny name, I haven't heard that one before. CA: Yeah, yep it is odd. He's passed on now. JM: Was that, the boatyard where the Heliker LaHotan foundation is now? Or the one that's at the end of Dog Point road? CA: No, not the Dog Point road, this first one over here. JM: okay, okay CA: You go down about Adden(?) point road, down, down off on that Y. JM: Okay, and that was the Stanley. Okay CA: Yep, there's two men used to live there together, didn't they? JM: Yup, Bob and Jack. So that one, that one boathouse that they turned it, they turned it into a studio, but the big building burnt down didn't it? CA: Oh it did. Yeah. JM: Yeah. So it's not there anymore CA: Used to be a big boathouse with all them boats sorting them out, and repairing them, used to be a dock there. JM: Yeah, you can see where the dock used to be still, but it's not there anymore. JD: And uh did your father work there, what type of work there did he do? CA: Repair the boat and painting 'em and, maintenance. JD: Did he work there, from then on? CA: Yeah he worked there quite a while, was fishing, lobstering. Went fishing, trawl fishing. JD: What's trawl fishing? CA: several hooks on the line, six-hundred debn crawled.. they'd be called. There were seasons n' the spring .. fish or codfish. JD: Wow, was that like the big, like was that a big money fish, the codfish CA: Well, you'd get a pretty good price for 'em. Cos they just come in and spring in, school, rest of the year, you'd go fishing for Hake- JD: Hake? How's that spelled? CA: H. A. K. E. JD: Hake, in summer, never had Hake. CA: It's a good, it's soft but good fish. Egg sauce. JM: It's like ah, a white fish isn't it? CA: white yeah, Haddock is fish, the best there is. JD: Yeah haddock? Did your dad fish for Haddock at all? CA: There'd be Hake a lot of it JD: so Cod in the spring hake in the summer, what'd you fish for, in the fall? CA: Lobster fishing JD: Lobster CA: And he had traps. JD: And ah, did he fish for anything in the winter? Or did he pull his boat out? CA: No, when they could get out he went Lobster fishing. JD: Fall slash winter. Did he make uh, decent living, fishing? CA: No, no, just enough to get by. JD: Really! CA: Yeah well, there wasn't many big fishing as there are now. If you get 50 or 100 pounds you're doing good. Get out, stop fishing, boom! Two or three thousand pound a day some of them. JD: This is lobster? CA: Yeah. They caught over 200 million pounds of lobsters last year. Maine fisherman. JD: Oh my gawsh. CA: Can you imagine that? JD: Why does, why do they catch so much more now? CA: been controlled and no one knows why, they just struck. JD: That's crazy. JM: But the gear in the boats allow them to get more too. Than they used to. CA: yeah. You can set them anywhere and they'll, lobsters are everywhere. Before, when I was fishing, you'd have to fish round shoals. JD: now uh, yeah so you were a fisherman, as well/ CA: I did fish yeah. JD: Is that what you did ever since you got out of the service? CA: Yeah, mhm. JD: What type of things, did you fish for the same kind of fish that your father did? CA: Yeah, mhm. JD: So cod, hake, and lobster CA: When on that trawling I used to go with him, weren't to have a boat. JD: Weren't allowed to? CA: A boat went to school. JD: Uhm. When did you get your own boat? CA: When I got out of the service. JD: Yeah, so people don't fish cod anymore, and why is that? CA: Cod? There isn't any, they got fished out. Big draggers come on take everything, the big and the small. JM: I know that they shut down the industry in Canada, the cod fishing industry, did they ever do that here? CA: The bay of Maine, closed to cod fishing. JD: Oh they shut, the government shut it down, oh I didn't know that JM: yeah, it got so bad CA: thought if they could control it would come back JD: When was that? CA: Haddock's gone. They catch it offshore somewhere but real scarce. JD: And when did the haddock go, do you think? When did people stop fishing for it? CA: In the sixties I believe slowed down, wasn't any. JD: So going back to your father, one thing I've never understood, or even when you were a fisherman too, when you bring in your haul of like, cod or hake or lobster, what did people do with it then? CA: Well there'd be people that buy 'em, they have a market and process 'em and JD: Would that be over on MDI somewhere? CA: Yup used to buy fish on that dock JD: I've heard that yeah, where the post office is CA: I was tuna fishing at that time, fifteen of them frozen whole, because there wasn't no market for them JD: What was that? CA: Wasn't no market, so we froze them. JD: And then did what with them? (laughter) CA: And then when we sold them when we got 5 cents a pound for em JD: Oh, that's not much (laughter) CA: No, not for a tuna fish, you can get 2 or 3 thousand dollars on the ship from Japan now JD: Oh for all the, sushi? CA: For the cushi yeah JD: Huh that's incredible JM: You can get a lot of money for a tuna now. CA: You like cushi? JD: Oh I love sushi, now I do, I didn't used to but I went with Jenny the other day, and it was great. Jenny loves sushi. CA: Oh yeah. People eat it now, people like it. JD: Do you like it? CA: No, no, no (laughter) JD: Not your thing. Did you eat- CA: Never, never had it at home JD: Never had it?! CA: People say they like it but I've never had it. CA: We've got to make some for you Chuttie. CA: Oh god! JD: It's an experience! Do you know how to use uh, chopsticks? CA: No. JD: We'll bring over some chopsticks JM: And some raw tuna CA: Brought some home from Okinawa (?) JD: Oh during the war, you were in Japan? CA: Yeah, in the Pacific JD: Wow CA: Was you here when they had that service for me? JD: Hm? CA: Was you here when they had that service for me? JD: No, I think I've seen the article though. CA: Over on the counter there JD: You got, you got some of it over here? CA: Yup JD: Oh WOW, are these the uh, medals CA: Yep JM: Many years too late JD: Yeah we just saw that article like' 70 years too late" or something! CA: Yeah, yeah I know that was Ricky my son bought this for me JD: Nice CA: That's a division medal, New York division, these are all going in there, JD: Oh that'll be awesome, are you going to hang it somewhere? CA: open it. JD: Oh nice, why didn't they give these to you at the time? CA: I was on temporary duty and I got sick and the old I got out from the divios, Japan occupation JD: Who's that, is that Stephanie? CA: No, that's a friend in Boston JD: Oh! At the worldseries! Wow, look at that. CA: That's Fenway Park JD: Have you ever been there? CA: Oh yeah, once JD: Oh yeah this is, we saw this article. CA: And all these papers JD: How was that, to receive all this medals, after all this time CA: I couldn't imagine it how, granddaughter.. that's Ashley. Yep. lan, and this guy, still together and their two kids. JD: Oh Jeremy, is that Rick's daughter? Or Ricks son. CA: He lives in Colorado. JD: Oh yeah I don't think I've met her. CA: You've met her? JD: I don't think so. CA: She hasn't been up in a good while JD: I have it on temporary record, Stephanie. Wow. Cool CA: fire and it burnt JD: There was a fire in Washington? CA: Yup, records gone JD: Oh gawsh, all the records of your service? CA: The cat! (laughter) JD: Where is your cat? Outdoors oh yeah okay, on a day like this. You've just got the one? CA: Yeah JD: Uhm, so you said you had ten cats growing up? Or twelve? CA: Oh yeah JD: Gosh, that's amazing CA: They weren't around, they weren't around the house very much, sleep in the barn, keep the mice down. JD: So what was the process of building the barn like? CA: That was to keep the COWS in, hay. JD: Oh so you had hay from the island or you cut y- CA: Cut our own hay either cut it or we'd sell it. JD: That's so cool! Where did you cut hay, or where did he cut hay? CA: In the field around. JD: So that, once again in that field by Mickey's house, a little bit down from Mickey's? CA: Yeah, yeah JD: People would let you cut it, cut down fire wise, they like to have it cut. CA: So it wasn't you land necessarily, it was CA: No, no what you doing with JD: Why did they let you do it? CA: They didn't want it to grow up to be, grow old, it would JD: Well what I've heard is the island was a lot clearer back in those days in terms of having a lot less trees. CA: Yeah, yep this all down this area yeah. When I come over it was all pasture. It grew up wild. JD: Now why, why was it pasture? Did people- CA: Never did.. grow up, people farmed it JD: People farmed it, when people, when you got over here so that would be in the forties, were people farming? Over here on Islesford? CA: Hmmm just their own gardens, no big farming or anything JM: did they have those gardens to get them through the winter? Or were they selling anything? CA: Yeah, used, people used to can it. Now a lot of them freeze it. JD: Uhm so were like people had their vegetables that they got on here that they, y'know ate fresh or canned, where did people get the rest of their food from like meat or, other products CA: There used to be each week there would be a guy from Southwest would come down on his boat with meat Sawyers they called it. JD: Whaddaya call it? JM: Sawyers CA: Sawyers. That's what his name was. JD: Oh huh that sounds familiar actually CA: There's a Sawyers market in Southwest Market, hand me down, carried the system on, grandchildren's carried it on. You could get any kind of meat you'd want he'd have it with him JD: That's incredible, so you'd send an order of and then he'd bring it? CA: When Wilfred started running the boat he'd carry freight he'd bring it down on the Mailboat. They don't do it now. JD: So was nobody was anybody producing their own meat on the island or had livestock for meat at that point? CA: Well people would keep horses, things like that, hens.. there wasn't any local meat JD: There wasn't any? CA: No, used to have rabbits, tons of rabbits used to be. JD: On Great Cranberry? CA: Yeah, used to can 'em and make mincemeat out of them. JD: Who'd go rabbit hunting? CA: I used to go. JD: Were you a good shot? CA: Got 31 on the last 22 single shot 22 JD: Oh my gawsh, that would feed you for the whole winter I would think CA: I saw Claureen Sarve got that little 22 JD: Where was the best spot to hunt rabbit? CA: They were everywhere. you'd see white rabbit popping up JD: What happened to them all, so there were all these rabbit's? CA: died off JD: There was a disease that killed them CA: Yeah, there was a disease they JD: So at one point there was enough that you got thirty in a sitting CA: Yeah JD: That's incredible, did you do any other CA: Like chicken, they're a white meat JD: They're a white meat? What would, how would you prepare 'em? CA: You could broil them, in a stew um, several ways you could make 'em. Used to make mincemeat out of 'em. JD: Mincemeat. In the (GCI) Historical Society over there we have a couple of meat grinders; oh is that what you would use to make mincemeat? CA: Yeah we'd grind it yep, mother used to have one that you'd grind it we've got some here. JD: You do? Have you used them recently? CA: Yeah, last we made mincemeat. She's gone now, passed away. Picture of her out, on this wall here. Out back there right over by the stove. JD: Ohhh. That's a great photo CA: Look who took it. JD: Does it say JM: Does it say JD: Peter Halston! (laughter) No kidding! He's worked for the island institute or was for the president of the island institute JM: Oh okay, yeah CA: You know him then? JD: I don't know him personally but I've heard a lot about him. CA: Yeah he was nice, come down a lot, he could take a picture, when we were up in the garden JD: Ah that's a great photo CA: When he come down he had that with us JD: Perfect! I've heard great things about your wife from um Anne Fernald CA: Oh she was a great cook. They were good friends. JD: And now then, did she keep that garden up back? CA: Yep that was, Joice, Joice Briggs, daughter she tends to it JD: mm! She tends to it now? CA: Yup she keeps it up and Ashley Bryant you know him? JD: Yep CA: He painted pictures of all of our gardens and he sold them and quite a lot of money for them, and donated the money to take care of the gardens. JD: That's awesome! That's amazing, were they flower gardens? CA: Several thousand dollars he got for them paintings JD: Wow! That's pretty good, now were they flower gardens it looks like from out there that they were flower gardens. CA: Yep yeah there was a garden round the house here and up here JD: Oh that would be so beautiful, did you, do you sell the cut flowers or do you just have them? CA: Naah, she just grew em and people took pictures of them CA: Painted them JD: Yep, yep, yep CA: She had a lung operation, had to have part of her lung out, cancer JD: Oh man CA: She lived quite a few years, with just that one JD: She just had one lung? CA: Yep JD: Oh goodness. When did she pass? CA: Five years ago. (July 9th?) JD: Now she wasn't from the island was she? CA: She was born, born there yeah. Right next to the schoolhouse is where she lived JD: Over on Great Cranberry? CA: No over here JD: I thought she wa- what was her last name, or what was her maiden name? CA: Bryant JD: So Lillian Bryant? CA: Mhm. JD: I thought she was from away, no kidding. Now was her father the one who built the church? Alonso? CA: Yep. No, his father, it would be his father JD: Oh it was her grandfather? CA: AJ Bryant. JD: Yeah, right okay. CA: Not Alonso. JD: Now how did you and Lil meet? CA: On a picnic JD: On a picnic?! CA: Yeah. We went down to the beach and no one had any mustard so she was going up to her house and getting some. Let me walk up with her. (laughter). That was a picnic. JD: Hmm! Smooth move Lil! Now was this after you had come back from the service or before? CA: Yeah when I come back, yeah I didn't know her. JD: You grew up on these two different islands and you didn't know each other at all? How did that work? CA: Didn't communicate at that time. Now our schools all go together but two things. Which is, great. All the kids know each other. JD: Yeah right exactly, but back then was there just less communication in general? CA: Yeah JD: It was still one town though. CA: Yep, town meeting, we'd all get together. JD: So now uhm, kind of getting back to your mother, you said she worked in the post office? CA: Yeah the post office several days a week. JD: mm. Did she have any other jobs? CA: mmmm. owned the store. JD: Oh owned the store in there too? CA: Yeah the store. JD: What was the store called? CA: Hmm, I don't think it had a name to it. Just called the store. JD: What type of stuff did she sell? CA: Everything JD: Everything? CA: Everything going JD: Like food? CA: Yeah JD: Anything else beside food? CA: Like general goodies JD: Hm. Like stuff for, would she sell stuff to fishermen, like gear or was it more like household CA: No. household JD: Did the food come from the islands or did it come from the mainland? Hm. So would she order it from somewhere? CA: Yeah. JD: Uhm now how, from what year- CA: There was a guy he used to bring it freed on, from Southwest. He'd come down once a week to deliver it. There was a fr.. next to the coast guard base in Southwest. Where he run from. JD: Now what, roughly from what year to what year would you say your mum had that store? CA: Ooh. | wanna say round, in the forties she get done with it. JD: Oh she only kept up with it until the forties? Why did she stop? CA: Someone else applied for it, and got more points. That's how they did it then yeah. JD: So did she own it or did she rent it? CA: We owned the building in it like uh JD: Now do you know what happened to that building? Cos it's not there anymore CA: it's a library, and they tore it down. People didn't want it. Lovely building, I don't' know why they tore it down. JD: Yeah I just saw it in a photograph yesterday, I'll have to show it to you. CA: It was quite a long building, come round the road JD: Yeah it was like brown, and was it shingled? CA: Yeah JM: Hm. Interesting. JD: So your mother had it and it was the store and the post office. CA: living quarters out back JD: I see, lived out back, so when you lived in the living quarters before you moved to Beverley's? CA: Uh. JD: Uhm so after then after it was a store it was a library. CA: Yeah JD: Okay, that's, that's a fascinating building. Was your mother the librarian? CA: No, do you remember who- JD: I forget who it was. Roals Wage would it. Would it be. CA: Roals Wage? JD: Oh yeah that might that could be CA: That was uhm. Oscar Wedge's mother. He lived in that big brown house. JD: Where Kevin lives, now? CA: Yeah. Hm. He still live there JD: Yep mhm. I don't see him much. CA: He's quite a character isn't he? JM: Out and about yesterday. JD: Oh really? He must be getting his boats ready. So now, with your mothers store, one thing I've heard on the island that I don't know if this is true or not is that there wasn't a lot of money on the island being exchanged, is that, can you speak to that at all? CA: No, no one was heavily burdened with money I don't think.. there's was two who run businesses had the old house over there. Where Eddie Grey's got now. JD: That who's got now? CA: Eddie Grey. He used to take care of the, he used to own the rock and dock. Two docks over on east one on the way going in. Christian dock now isn't it? He used to own that and another one over round rock end-dock. He used to own that too. I'm getting hoarse over here. JD: Oh yeah, do you want some water? CA: No I've got some here JD: Oh okay good. JM: We're also approaching on an hour too. JD: Oh okay JM: Given you an idea? JD: Yeah perfect CA: He uh, had the boathouse and he had that, where he had all the Maintenance he repaired them too. And his father used to buy lobsters over here. He was in with uh. Evan Spurling. He couldn't get out of it and Burt Spurling. Was almost father. Elmar joined that, buying lobsters. JD: So like all the guys would go out fishing and bring back their lobsters and they'd go buy em? This is pre-coop days? CA: Yep. Mhm. Yep. They used to have what they'd call smacks. Big boats come in with haul, hauls in the well. They'd dump em in, keep em live, transport them that way. JD: What were those called? CA: Smacks JD: Smacks. Oh lobster smacks. CA: Yeah. Just two or three of them, used to come round and pick em up. JD: And then go where? Where did they take em? CA: Take em to market. JD: So if people didn't have, if there weren't a lot of people having any money, did people ever use things besides money to like in the store, could people come in and trade anything? CA: Wasn't anything like that. Down by the market you mean JD: Was there anything like that on the island? CA: Plenty of people surplus, give it away to people JD: What would people give away CA: Vegetables surplus. JD: Did your family ever give away surplus vegetables? CA: Oh yeah, yeah. When you get more, a little more than you need. JD: And was there any, was there ever any community meals? CA: Ladies aid used to put meals on they've remodelled that place JD: It's beautiful CA: Not like when I was growing up JD: Now yeah, it sounds like we're coming up on an hour, time, we could stop now asking you questions or keep going if you like? JD: Keep going is okay? CA: Have you had lunch? JD: Oh yeah we've had lunch. CA: I have too. JD: Oh okay good! I just don't want to take up too much of your time but I've got plenty of questions here for ya! Oh um this is one I always liked so uhm what were meals that your family commonly ate growing up? CA: My family always ate together. If he was going fishing he'd take his lunch with him JD: But what were things your mum would prepare, or your dad would prepare? CA: Baked Beans or the time, baking beans, soups and whatever was handy at the time! JD: Did you grow your own beans? CA: Yeah not the dry one, to bake you mean? No we'd buy those quite a process to dry them and shell them. JD: And what would you guys eat on special occasions? Like holidays? CA: Chicken. Chicken. Your own chicken, all roasted. JD: Is that the best? So for Christmas would you have chickens, for dinner? CA: Yeah. We used to eat a lot of seabirds as well. Around the shore. Used to go get them. JD: Who did? Who would go and get them? Would you go shoot them? What types? CA: Mhm. Whistlers, Sheldrake's, Sea Ducks. JD: What did you think of those; were they good? CA: Oh yeah, everyone loves them. Mother used to stew them and make the boys. JD: Now people don't really eat sea ducks anymore CA: Don't seem to. Everyone knows when you say sea ducks. Cos they're great. I still like them. JD: Now uh. Huh so people don't people aren't just interested in that idea anymore? CA: Don't seem to be no. JM: Yeah COS we eat mallards but we don't tend to eat sea ducks very often CA: Mallards you can buy them in the stores. JM: I've had a couple from the island CA: They're a good textured bird, mallards. JD: Are they better or worse than the sea ducks? CA: Well sea ducks are wild game. JD: Gamier? CA: Yeah. JD: Now what else would you, would you guys hunt anything else on the island? You mentioned rabbits and sea ducks. CA: We had our own pigs. We used to can herring and mackerel too. And season them. JD: You used to can it yourselves? CA: Yeah. We pick a pickled eggs, when the hens weren't laying good. Keep 'em big cro... jars down cellar JD: Oh you had a cellar? Hm. What else did you keep in the cellar? CA: m.. stored it. Keep wood, to keep it dry. JD: Yeah, so would you keep like. oh this is one big question. So the professor I'm working with is really interested in apple trees. Did you ever pick apples on the island? CA: Yeah, yeah, wild apples that's what they'd make the mincemeat JD: Oh sure, sure, right there you go! Cause I was talking to someone else who was talking about keeping big barrels of apples down in their cellar. CA: Where? JD: This was, I think Gail mentioned big barrels of apples, did you guys do that or anything like that? CA: Yeah, we'd pick 'em ahead of time, before they went bad, an' put 'em in the cellar. JD: Where did, where were some of the good apple trees on the island? Do you remember? CA: Back at Mickey's big house there, there was an orchard, all the different kinds of apples. I think that's the main place. JD: Yeah, is that orchard still there today? Are there apple trees back there? JM: There might be apple trees back there but there's definitely not an orchard. JD: Did it look like these trees had been planted intentionally? CA: Yeah, they were, they were planted at one time, they were sat right in a row. JD: Hm! Do you know who planted them? CA: Mmm no. Ricky Alley, Chuddie's son enters the house from the patio door. JD: Hey! RA: Hello! How you doing (hands package to Chuttie) | got this for ya, water bottle, it uh, won't leak. If you wanna try that. CA: Mailman. JD: Home delivery, that's pretty nice. CA: You know these girls? RA: What's that? CA: Do you know these girls? RA: Ricky. JD: Hi I'm Jessy Duma. RA: Hi good ta meet ya. JM: Hi I'm Jennie. RA: Hey Jennie, good ta meet ya. JD: I'm the island institute fellow so came to interview your dad for a project I'm doing. RA: Okay, getting anything out of him? JD: Oh yeah! Lots of good stuff. It's uh, the project I was brought here for is an agricultural heritage project, so uhm looking a lot at what were people eating, where were people getting their food and your dad has some awesome stories. CA: You might be able to help me Ricky! RA: They used to have uh, when he lived over on Big Cranberry they used to have uh COWS JD: That's what he was saying, two of em! RA: Yep. I never learned how to milk a COW. JD: What's with that! CA: Who was over in that Preble house? Mickey's yard now. RA: Oh I don't know, you know more about that over there than I did. JM: I know Preble owned it, William Preble owned it, way back. CA: Ah that's probably what it is. I don't remember it changing other than when Mickey. bought it RA: Mickey's still putzing around huh! He's an amazing character. Pretty near JD: I know right, silent most of the time, he's got his pipe y'know CA: Oh yeah. RA: Hasn't changed. Not since I was y'know. One of those people that never changes. Just goes on and on. JM: Yeah I think Patrick says he like, has remained unchanged since he was a child. RA: Yeah, that's right. He used to go ice fishing with us and everything. JD: Ice fishing where? RA: Lake Mandgammon. We went ice fishing there with him and way up North. Patent way up that way. Different places. He was always game for any of that stuff. JD: It's so hard to picture Mickey doing any of that stuff now, he's so like. Set in his ways y'know. Incredible. RA: Used to have a boat and stuff. JD: Oh nice. Did you go do that too? CA: Oh no. I haven't lately but used to go. RA: Mother used to go with us too. CA: Oh she was crazy, about scalloping. JD: Scalloping? Could you do that in this area? Really? RA: Yeah tow it with a rope CA: Signal drag RA: Three feet I think. JD: So you'd get in a boat and drag behind? RA/CA: Yeah. JD: Are there still scallops around here? RA: A few. They're coming back a little bit I think. What they, used to be a lot. JM: You can dive for them. I'm not sure if it's legal. CA: It's closed now. RA: Yeah, in certain areas it's closed. I don't think it was open around here. Seems strange, I'm not really up on it, COS they'll open it for a certain amount of time. CA: closed RA: yeah the seasons closed CA: Yeah, was it yesterday the last day? I don't know. It's got a lot more this year than in previous. Sign that it's coming back. JD: What happened to them, why did they go away? CA: Overfished RA: I think it was overfished, yeah they were fished pretty hard. CA: It's like the cod, they were overfished. JM: I think dragging, is pretty hard on the bottom. Like 'cos, with the really big trawlers, the huge industrial ones, they're getting a lot of the homes and the habitats and disturbing a lot, so you get less and less regrowth. JD: So did you get, eat scallops growing up? CA: Oh yeah JD: Oh yeah! JM: Did you guys ever go clamming on Great Cranberry? CA: Oh yeah. JM: Did you go in the pool? CA: Yeah. JM: Was it. Cos I know they used to dump a lot of trash in the pool, did you have a spot where you would go, or did you just not worry about it? CA: It was where we could find 'em. Find the clams. Come back pretty good I guess over there. JD: Yeah I need to go get some clams. CA: It was open one time all the professionals used to go in there and took everything. Took everything. JD: Yeah that's what I heard. When was this? RA: It was several times, over the last thirty-five, forty years. CA: Cleaned them right out. RA: Hit there in droves and just thinned them out so that it was difficult to find something. JD: No kidding. That's a certain company that does that or? RA: No just, commercial diggers. They're just so good at it y'know. Pretty efficient. Too efficient. JD: And I guess that's not, that land isn't owned by anyone if it's a mudflat. CA: Mudflat. Tidal waters. RA: Come in by boats, from the mainland. JD: Now one thing I've heard Chuddy, that Gail was telling me about is that people used to like, dry fish. JM: I was going to ask that! How did you- CA: With racks. Not down here, the town dock. There used to be one right there. Had racks. RA: Flakes they'd call them. CA: yeah they'd lay them out flat on the stream. And in the well. RA: Chicken wire. CA: So they had to get it on the bottom JD: So they'd use chicken wire, what type of fish could you dry? RA: Cod. They'd take the salt best. They'd cut em, gut em, and take the head off and split them, from the belly, almost like fillet one side of it off and then take the back bone out where the sound is, y'know, where the air bladder is and flay it off from that side, so it was a little bit of the tailbone on a fish about this long would be about that much bone from the tail up and the rest would just flatten it out. It'called slacksaw cod it's called. You could put it really heavy salted to but you'd have to cook it. You'd have to bone it out and then after it was dried then soak it, change the water a few times. JD: Oh to get the salt out? RA: Yeah. It kept CA: Cold water would spoil it. RA: That was before refrigeration. CA: There was a big market for it before it gone away. You'd ship it places. JD: No kidding, where did.. RA: down to the Caribbean, and they'd bring back rum. JD: No kidding! This was happening in your lifetime? CA: before I moved away yeah JM: Do you remember the one that was, COS Patrick's told me stories about the ones that they used to have out on Jimmy's point on Great Cranberry, like 'em. CA: THey used to have something out there? JM: Yeah they used to have uhm. I guess big fish drying racks out like the one that you know, that little strip of land that looks over to Suttons and then on the direct other side is the pool. RA: That'd be a good spot to dry. JM: They used to have them over there too I guess. CA: There was a boathouse there I remember. RA: There was a dock there too, off the East end. CA: Probably, that's beyond me. I don't remember it. JD: So how big were these drying racks? CA: oh, twenty feet wide and on the dock was, you'd walk between rows of it RA: You'd have to take 'em up if it rained or.. Fog came in, or as the dew would start to come in in the evening. JD: That'd be a lot of work. Would the fisherman do that and cut 'em and lay 'em out CA: On the dock. Fisherman brought the fish in to em, sold 'em to "em. They'd manufacture them. JD: Who would? CA: The one that owned the dock. JD: Hm. And who owned the dock? CA: I don't know who owned it. JD: And this is the one on Great Cranberry? CA: down the restaurant dock. RA: The Islesford dock. CA: They used to bring vessels in that with coal, and wood. RA: That's how we got rats. JD: What? You had rats? RA: We had em. When I was a kid I remember, they looked monstrous. JD: Oh my Gawsh. CA: mink ate them all. RA: The rat might be bigger than the rat sometimes. The mink is feisty! JD: We were just talking about rats the other day, and somebody was talking about when the livestock would leave, y'know when people didn't have livestock there'd be rats. But did people really have any animals or livestock when you were growing up? RA: No, not that I remember. No cows, other than the stray horse once in a while, or a goat. Yeah nothing for milk or anything like that. JD: Now Chuttie, why do you think people stopped keeping animals? CA: a lot of work. You'd have to get all the hay for winter, and that why, it's a lot of work in it. RA: It was pretty cheap to buy, you had refrigeration too. CA: The market come on too, big farms produce milk. JD: Yeah I'm guessing refrigeration played a big part because then you could bring it over. RA: And there was a little ice house down here, the little road. Did you tell them about that? JD: Yeah we were talking about the icehouse, there's now the. RA: right by ravenhills, yeah. To the east of it- CA: Mattna Maise??? RA: -You can see kinda the layout of the pond, and there's a dam on the end by the ravenhills. And the street runs eventually down to the maypole, down from there They were, my mother was telling me about somebody, who was it that used to take care of it? The pond, ice pond. They'd clean the bushes out of it in the fall and the leaves and stuff and plug the drain and let it fill in the fall and then the ice, they'd cut ice. There was a house there with sawdust, layers of sawdust between the kegs of ice, probably, that thick or so (around 14 inches?). CA: I don't know who used to do it. JD: would they be shipped anywhere or would they just be used on the island? RA: Usually just here I think, yeah. They used to do that out of Northeast Harbor too but Lor Hadlock, had the sluce, all the way from there down to town. It was interesting, sometimes, to get those things going. JD: Can you imagine! Big block of ice. So Chuddy, when did you get your first refrigerator out here? Your family. CA: We had one over on Cranberry first, I first remember when we bought, when we bought the house, we bought one. Cos there wasn't any. RA: Late forties. JD: Late forties, kinda Did it change how you bought or prepared food at all when you had a refrigerator? CA: Well there were a lot of things you didn't have to jar and can. Refrigerate it. JD: Yeah you mentioned that earlier, you can just freeze it. CA: Same time that deep freeze came along didn't it? RA: I think SO. JD: All right, let's see what else we have on here. Oh right, so we kind of talked about apple trees over on Great Cranberry, but do you guys know of any awesome orchards over here? (LCI) CA: Do you know where that big red house is down, down right across JD: Yeah townsflag(?) CA; There was a big orchard right there. JD: Oh yeah there's a couple, there's three big trees right down towards the water? CA: Used to be a whole field down there. JD: The whole field of it? Oh my Gawsh. CA: Mackintosh, no not Mackintosh, the ones that come first. The yellow ones. JM: Yellow transparents? RA/CA: yeah. Yellow transparents. CA; Used to be four of 'em. RA: yeah they come in August, real early. JM: Early, early. JD: Early apples. CA: Those are falling off the tree then. JD: How many trees do you think were down there? When you were young? CA: It went right down to the shore. Must be twenty or more down there. RA: That's over on Cranberry? Yeah I don't know much about the CA: They built a house down in there didn't they? JD: Yeah the wood, no not the Wood, the Browns live there. Yeah there's a house there now, and just like 3 apple trees. CA: JD: yeah I think so, cause Lims own the red house and then yeah I think it's Browns or something. CA: Towns used to own the red house. JD: Yeah! Talking about all this food stuff. JD: Do you guys know of any apple orchards over here? Or apple trees, particularly good apple trees? CA: Used to be, up on these crossroads. RA: Where the Senates is now, that used to be all orchards. JD: Where was that? RA: Between the back road, and the front road. Uhm, you know where the Senates live? JD: No. RA: Across the road from the morans and- CA: Suzy valdeiras JD: Oh okay, yeah, yeah CA: behind their house. Back in that cross roads. RA: And there were some other, like pears and things. They were apples mostly but other things too. JD: Oh cool. CA: They used to pay us, JD: So this is, this is in between the two roads CA: That level place, it's all cat spruce now. I can remember there was still an apple tree or two, 'cos the post office used to be up across the road from Steve and Amy's, used to be Natalie Beal, and Lawrence. Post office was there and then the house across the road that uhm. Courtney's working on now, the Isaacs. There's a path that run right down the back and that gone now too. RA:Yeah, COS now its all- JD: And now could anyone go and pick the apples? Or was it all the property of someone? CA: Just went wild, and people picked em. JD: Free for all. RA: I don't know who had it. CA: At one time they were planted there. JD: That's so cool. RA: Was that like the Heffner's house? CA: I don't know who owned it then. Just, was available. RA: I remember behind the school, on here, we used to go out in September and pick the plumbs. And the plum trees were right behind the school, you know where the steps to the apartment behind the school, right in that area, just a mass of plum trees, and they were just a WWII surplus that were given to the school I guess. And they seeded from those, the kids would toss the pit and.. JD: (laughter) that's incredible! The seeds twere this big, but ooh really good. They were such skinny trees it was hard to get up and get em, but you'd shake 'em I guess to get em down. And we just, missed that, we'd look forward to that, it was so good. JD: What happened to those trees back there? RA: Well uh, Maples used to start to grow up in em, y'know the Norway Maples, which is invasive. But uh. CA: Killed 'em off. RA: One of the mothers decided she was going to clean it up, so she cut all the plum trees down and let the Maples up. JD: You're kidding! Oh what a shame. JM: That would have made me sad. RA: Oh they were so good, they weren't very big, I suppose because of the climate but uh oh they were good. JD: I didn't even know plums could grow in this climate. RA: Yeah CA: They did! RA: Not sure what species they were, they were kind of oblong and about this big. JM: Well we're temperate enough normally to grow things like peaches and, whereas more inland Maine they can't. RA: Too cold. JM: You get more of a deep freeze. JD: Are there any peach trees on the island? I mean I think there's- CA: We got one down here but we can't get nothing off of it. JD: Oh really? JM: There's one on MDI that grows really well. CA; There's one over Bar Harbor that's loaded every year. JD: Where is that? CA: Bar Harbor. RA: That Hulls Cove? CA: yeah on the road to Bar Harbor. JD: Is that that same one you were thinking of? CA: Hairdresser. RA: the hairdresser. It'd be on your left as you going towards Ellsworth, after you go through Hulls Cove you going up over the hill. JD: Okay, yeah. JM: There's another one in Otter Creek. RA: Helen Ham used to have one, down by the footnote. CA: Two. RA: Just below Nico's house. There was a good one there. Actually two but, they weren't very big but boy, they had a lot. JD: No kidding, that was Ham, first name Ellen? CA/RA: Helen JD: Helen Ham RA: And those were a pretty good size, they'd get up to about (size of an average supermarket apple) Pretty good. JD: Wow! For this far North. I was just going to say that Heliker LaHotan planted a tree that just started producing and there tiny, you know, which is what I figured it would be, up here you know. Oh cool. Now did you, did you do anything with them? Now what I'm kind of getting at, my professor always talks to me about apple cider vinegar as an ingredient used to preserve food. Did you ever hear anything about that on the island or people used apple cider vinegar? CA: Oh they'd make cider, grind them. These wild apples. JD: Okay let me check, I think I've covered most of my topics except for- JM: We're losing battery. JD: Oh okay, the one last thing I wanted to get at was uhm but before we get to the final questions was uhm. Waste, like what did you guys do with trash when you were growing up on Great Cranberry? CA: Well, dump it over mostly. RA: Yeah take it out CA: That was our only source. No one composted or anything like that. JD: Really so people had all these gardens but nobody- CA: Didn't realise it JD: So all your food waste an' everything RA: Mostly pigs, chickens too would take a lot of it. Leavings. Unfortunately most of the other trash would get dumped overboard. Which is probably true of a lot of places. Not anymore thank god. JD: Yeah, right. RA: I remember in the Spring this time of year if we'd get an easterly or southeast wind for more than a couple of days you'd start to see the Canadian stuff come ashore y'know. Jugs, and buckets and bags and flotsam you know and some of it in French. Lots of buoys and ropes. You don't see that uh anymore, and that's good. JD: Wow so when did you, what time period would you say that was? RA: That was probably like 15 years ago, it started to get better. I've heard, going to fishermen and things in Canada, they have a big dumpster on every dock for guys to bring their stuff in. They used to have 5 gallon buckets for all the oil. Sometimes the cover would be on it, sometimes it wouldn't. I'd hate to see that nowadays. CA: Used to be a boat come from Japan, down off the Carolina's across the ocean some mom and dad. RA: Well, I know a lot of stuff comes ashore in the Pacific. Big dumpsters full of, not dumpsters but those containers. JD: Oh gosh they just toss' em in. RA: Yeah they lose those big containers off the vessels in a storm. Can you imagine hitting one of those in a boat? Oof. Pretty rugged. JD: Well, actually, it's perfect that we have you here Ricky COS one other thing I see on here is um. Fish weirs? Did you, and I've heard that you have a - RA: I have a fish trap JD: Okay you've had a trap, it's not a weir though. RA: Works the same principle but it's anchored, has a bottom in it. Just pulling it up to run it. It's forty by sixty feet the box, and I had it at Preble cove for a little while last summer. And Johnson's cove, it's something that can move around. CA: It's a net, everythings a net. JD: And uh, what are you fishing for with that? RA: Herring, mackerel, squid, catch some butterfish in it sometimes. CA: He gets quite a variety. RA: Yeah you never know, a lot of mackerel, mostly. CA: Seals! JD: I didn't know there was mackerel around. I always hear people talking about 'oh in the past we used to catch mackerel'. JM: Patrick catches mackerel and pollock all summer long. JD: Oh really? CA: Yeah there's mackerel around. JM: You can smell 'em. RA: The most fish I've ever caught in the trap was Herring, and that was 70 bushel one night which is for where that would be a big catch, that's plenty for what I want and to eat some y'know. The biggest catch of mackerel is 30 bushel. CA: Pogey's sometime RA: Pogey's, bluefish, striped CA: Big boats come in, clean 'em up. RA: They kind of come and go too. I mean their uh, more of a southern fish. Menhaven or Pogey's. They make uh fishmeal and uh, pretty fine grain oil out of it, pogey oil. For paints and things like that. JD: Oh I've read about things like that. John Gilley, who they wrote that book about, he did pogey. Is that how it's pronounced? He used to press pogey oil. CA: John Gilley, who you're talking about? JD: Yeah he pressed pogey oil I guess over on Suttons. RA: And they were here for a few years back. I got most of them in purcain. (perch??) CA: Got one right up there JD: What's uh purcain? RA: Well it's uh, a panel or net 50 fathom long 300 feet by uh 5 fathom deep and 7 or 8 inch mesh, we had gotten it for Herring actually, chase them at night but you uh set it around a school of fish and uh there's rings every two fathom that hangs off the bottom, every two fathom hangs down off a rope about this long, and there's a rope that goes through all the rings and you pull it, both ends at the same time and one is pulled by hand and the other one was hollow was pulling it the trap and it just uh, puckers the net underneath them and you've got them. Hopefully! JD: Wow! RA: I tell you Steve Opruc one day we chased pogeys up an oh Somes Sound and over by Clam hanut over that way, Norwoods Cove (SWH) and we set seven times, and got no fish. We were tired. JD: Yeah, if you're hauling it in yourself. Oh my goodness. RA: And other times I've taken it, like David Thomas and I went up to Northeast Harbor and over on the west side of the Harbor before you get into the middle, into the Harbor before that low grey house, what's that called? JM: I don't know the name of it. RA: Over in that little cove sat next to a little school of pogey's on the surface just resting and they weren't moving at all around the whole school, and pursed them up and we had at least 200 bushel, and we got alongside and we saved what we needed which was 50 bushel and let the rest go, they just swam off the rest of them. JD: Now what do you do with them? RA: Lobster bait. RA: When your Pursing them they start jumping, rushing along the float line and you have to pull the float line, make a roof over them, otherwise they just start pushing it over and go all over. JD: So where did you get the idea, I haven't really heard of anyone setting the trap or Pursing. RA: Well I heard I'd seen something for the fish trap in the Fisherman's paper, Maine DMR tried them in different place to see if people could get their own bait and I thought that was a pretty neat idea and I talked to a net maker, down in Warren if he knew anybody who did that and he told me he did, so I got ahold of the guy and he was a nice old fella, he was 85 years old, still fishing his 100 ft trap with his older brother and some nephews! It was quite a crew. JD: That's incredible! RA: Jeremy and I went down with em, oh goodness, slept in a tent in his yard, got up early went out with him, went through the under the bridge there at South Bristle, COS he had a dock on the Western side and uh hauled his trap, amazing, and the purcaine, we'd seen quite a few Herring out, we got a hold of Ken grey, the netmaker there, and he made us up a purcaine. And uh we set it, several times, and another time set it in Northeast Harbor, heard there were some Pogeys up there and it was like, june something like that fairly early, it must have been mid june and it had been overcast most of the day and we got up in there and all the sail boats was in and no one was moving around which is unusual for Northeast Harbor and we were in off the in where the sunbeam was and off the stern of sunbeam, off in that little basin was uh a school of fish and the bottom is fairly deep there but its' a soft bottom, so it's alright if the net touches, don't wanna do it on a rocky bottom so uh we went in, I had Joe Stanley with me, and we got the stern of the sunbeam just in gear and | said okay let the end go and he's got a basket rigged up got a few lids on the bottom and a float on the top and its bridled and you just toss it over and it sinks down and it acts as a sea anchor and starts to pull a net out and then when the net gets going I speed it up a little bit just kept going right around just missing sailboats one side right around the other side and uh we got back to the stern of the sunbeam, the end just dropped overboard and I picked up the other end and it was perfect had em all in stayed up the whole time, and it was touching bottom they weren't gonna go anywhere and the ends were almost right together, so we started pursing them up and all these people were on the sterns of the sailboats with the hibachis going, they were watching and thought that was pretty neat, specially when we got it about a third of the way pursed and they all started flying in the air, they all cheered it was so funny. So strange. Odd spot. Probably I'd get thrown in the hoosegow setting there. JD: How many bushels did you get? RA: I think we got 75 bushels that time. JD: Wow /oh cool RA: And we, were just out; by the time we got everything there was no wind we didn't have to throw an anchor overboard of anything we were right in the middle and bailing them in with the hauler and dipnet held about 2-3 bushel, and let them go in the boat and we went by and one of the sailboaters (saying) "I thought there was about six fish there!" they flip every once in a while you see this little ripple, you can tell there's something there COS they flip every once in a while. JD: Uh, that's incredible. CA: Fish, school of 'em going in the water RA: Those pogeys are, when they're in their restful mode like they were then oh they're pretty easy to catch but when they're moving ooogh. You don't have enough net to get around them, go around, go around trying to and they're just trying to go around your bow they move so fast when they want to. JD: So has it been worth it? Having the fish trap and the purcaine? RA: Oh | don't know, I suppose it sure has to me, I want to see what's there, that's the main reason I do it, but it makes real good lobster bait, for hard shells, which is what I wanna catch. CA: Yeah RA: It sure brings the trap to life when you get the good fresh bait like that's maybe an hour old as opposed to old, old stuff. CA: The lobster'll go for fresh bait, the fresher the better RA: And it doesn't matter, you know, what type it is, I catch blueback herring, I catch a few alewives, herring, mackerel they're all good JD: They're all good, no kidding. Now did fishermen back when, you know, let's say when you started fishing, where they using fresh bait to catch lobsters? CA: Yeah we used to torch our bait every fall JD: You used to what? CA: (with a smile) torch 'em (laughter) RA: That's uhm. That's a way of fishing. You use uhm what's called a dragging which is a dip net made out of chain and it has a little iron pipe for a handle, you throw a couple of crocus sacks in there with uh, soaked in kerosene, with a little bit of gasoline for oomph JM: Oh yeah, oh yeah, Patrick's told me about this. RA: Yep, oh yeah and there's two boats that do it, one is uh, two guys with a dory CA: With a big net RA: A big dip net with a bow diameter of at least 6-7 feet and the net might be 15ft long, big long dip net, a net that fits into this big hoop, and there's a guy with a dip net that gets off the stern of the dory and just has it in the water and the guy rowing the dory is rowing it backwards, towards the guys that are bringing the fish, chasing the drag/ CA: /They go for the flame/ RA: / fire. They're coming, I mean if its a good school of herring, ive heard its hard to get your oars in the water the fish are so thick JD: The fish are so thick oh my gawd RAAnd they're pushing trying to go right by the dory and turn right at the last second, so they doesn't catch the tip of the net on fire in the dory and then he scoops it down in the water and that'll fill up. Sometimes fifteen bushel in a dip, d'you think? CA: Bring the dory forward, right up to the runners, one torch RA: One dip? JD: Oh my gosh RA: They are really packed. They are drawn to it, I don't know whether it's the feed, they're drawn to it, I don't know what it is, they just like the light. JD: Why don't people do this anymore? RA: It's not legal, been dead for a long time! CA: The small boat with the torch, when you light it, the boat lights up over water! JD: Yeah so this is how you used to catch your bait? CA: Used to, used to do it. The fall bait that's how we used to get it, except for now, can't do it. RA: It's been outlawed for quite a while, kind of hard on the guys got the weir or the guys waiting at the cove for the school of fish to come and somebody from outside and do that. JM: Just so you know the battery's pretty much dead. JD: Awesome okay yeah well we should get going. I'm just wondering; do you guys know if there's anyone else we should talk to who's interested in history or might have any insights about gardening, food, fishing. RA: Teddy Spurling maybe? Have you spoken to Teddy spurling? JD: No I haven't actually, I think I've only met him maybe once. CA: Ted's pretty good; he goes down with the doctors to the Caribbean. RA: Yeah he was in Haiti, Dominican republic this year. They used to go down to central america but those countries changed their laws about doctors and uh, if anything happens they're criminally y'know indicted, capable of, so they don't go there, Venezuela. CA: Go down and help em they in the hospital RA: He was, he was an interpreter for them and he was in the Dominican Republic this year. JD: Yeah I had heard, Drury told me about that. So he would be a good person to talk to? RA: Yeah, his sister Serena is up here and I don't know if Cara might have something too, if she would or not, that's their mother. I don't know, I can't think of anybody right off the head JM: I'm going to turn this off. JD: Okay.